044 - The Science of Haircutting: Unveiling the Head Shape Matters System

Welcome back to Stylist Soul Tribe Conversations! In this episode, we're diving deep into the science and precision behind the art of haircutting with two incredible guests: Annette Durkin and Vanessa Bangle from Head Shape Matters (HSM).

Annette, a longtime member of Soul Tribe and an experienced hairstylist from Lincoln, Nebraska, has been passionate about hair cutting and education for years. She’s joined by Vanessa, the Director of Education for Head Shape Matters, who brings over a decade of industry experience to the table. Together, they unpack the revolutionary HSM system—a patented, science-based approach to haircutting that goes beyond traditional techniques to offer precision and customization like never before.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• The Origin Story: How Head Shape Matters was developed and the inspiration behind this game-changing system.
• The Four Core Components: Understanding head shape, cutting angles, gravity's impact, and the desired overall haircut shape.
• Transforming Techniques: How the HSM system helps stylists deliver consistent, long-lasting results for clients.
• Creating a Unique Client Experience: Why a detailed head shape analysis can set your salon apart and justify higher pricing.
• Education and Certification: Explore the different pathways to mastering the HSM system, from intensive in-person certifications to flexible online courses.
• Real-World Impact: Hear stories from Annette and Vanessa about how HSM has transformed their careers and the experiences of their clients.
• Continuous Growth: The importance of challenging yourself to learn new skills and elevate your craft.

Featured Guests:

• Annette Durkin: Hairstylist, Educator, and Soul Tribe Member | Instagram: @hairnette
• Vanessa Bangle: Director of Education, Head Shape Matters | Instagram: @banglevan

Resources Mentioned:

• Head Shape Matters Website: www.headshapematters.com
• Head Shape Matters Instagram: @headshapematters
• Contact for Inquiries: Email Kim at Kim@headshapematters.com
• Subscribe to HSM’s Newsletter: Stay updated on upcoming classes and events by subscribing on their website.

Join the Conversation:

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• Website: StylistSoulTribe.com

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Transcript

lisa: 0:00

Hi, friends. Welcome back to Style and Soul Tribe Conversations. I have two special guests here today. Annette Durkin, who is a member of Soul Tribe. She has been for years. Annette is a hairstylist and suite owner in Lincoln, Nebraska. She's also an educator for Head Shape Matters, which is a patented haircutting system focused on math and science. I'm so grateful that Annette has now connected me with Vanessa Bangle, the director of education for Head Shape Matters, who is also joining us today. Hey, ladies. Thank you both so much for coming on the podcast. How are you guys doing? Hi. Good. Thank you for having us. Yes, of course. So Annette, I know you've listened to the podcast episode before I like to be mindful. I do upload video content as well as audio, but why don't Annette, maybe you do a little intro so people can know your voice and then Vanessa can do a little intro so that people can know their voice, her voice for those that are listening on audio. So yeah, I'm Annette and my, I found Headshape Matters back in 2016, 2017. And I found it on Facebook and just the random little tips that were given that were actually rather vague. I was, Implementing behind the chair. And I noticed a huge difference. And I've always liked hair cutting. And my clients have always been like, you're a great haircutter kind of thing. Yeah. And yeah, I just, I fell in love with head shape matters and it gives, I just loved the fact that it incorporated my math brain. I do have a math brain. And also. being an educator for them. It also brought in my teaching background as well as my hair background. So it was like just all encompassing of all of my interests. Okay. You don't have my squirrel brain is now I'm over here. I'm like, okay, back in 2016, I'm trying to think you say on Facebook, was it a Facebook group? Was it because I think Kim is the founder of him to head J matters. Is that what it was her posting it? What do you mean? Like you how did that go? Wow. It was just in my random scroll. I think it was probably an ad. Okay, interesting. Interesting. And then, yeah, Vanessa, why don't you do a little intro? If Annette found Head Shape Matters in 2016, I would say I became aware of Head Shape Matters in 2018, 2019. I was telling the ladies that before we hit record, so I, when did it start? Tell us, give us a little intro, Kim, or Vanessa, and then let's get into it. I'm from Pewaukee, Wisconsin. So I've been in the industry for about 12 plus years. I've been involved with HSM for about 10 years In 2015 is when I went to my first certification, which I think was the second certification class, the owner that I was working with at the time, she went the previous year. So I think it was probably around 2012, 2013 is when Kim officially created it and it became a class. I know she was doing some other classes, but they weren't as fully, Involved or organized as, it was, I think closer to when I went on vacation. Yeah. I put on in person events once a year and I can tell you, I've only done a few of them and they get much more organized each time. So I can only imagine how that was back in the day. Yeah, obviously I don't know Kim, but it sounds like she's the mastermind behind all of this. So what was that? process. How did she come about originating Head Shape Matters? And what made you fall in love with it enough to want to become part of the team? So she was a educator for a company a product company. So she went around teaching different haircuts. And then eventually she had the thought of like, why am I teaching all of these haircuts when she was behind the chair, she would, I think it was the Victoria Beckham haircut. So that's when I think the idea came from is she, that was a popular trendy haircut at the time. She did it on multiple clients within a short period of time. And she realized none of them, even though she was following the same step by step process that she was teaching. Fellow hairstylist, it was never coming out the same. She would always have to go back in and tweak things. And she was like, why is this never turning out? The same as when it is when I teach it in class on a mannequin, which we all know pretty much has the same head shape, which mannequin you use. So she was like, what the heck's going on? So she started observing how different each of her clients head shapes were. And how that was playing a big factor into how the haircut was laying. So you know what I'm already thinking right now? And I am stylist listening to this okay, I'm thinking like a super tight stacked Bob. I know we've all been there and a lot of people want it. And some people, they have that teeny tiny little Victoria neck, Beckham neck, and so they get a perfect stack back there. But a lot of the average people, they don't have that stack. It's the same concave and yeah, you end up with these big chunky flips, wings, things you can cut at the exact same. So that's fascinating. Also, when you hear things like that, isn't it just like, why didn't I think of that? Like whenever those things happen, it's duh, like it was right in front of us. I love stories of that as well. So keep going. Sorry, I interrupted you, but I just wanted to get a perspective from a stylist. so we and it was funny because when I started becoming when I first became a stylist. My boss was actually trying to teach me these things. So when you cut 90 degree layers, that actually doesn't fall into layers, it falls into graduation and she's doing all this. And it was opposite of what we were taught in beauty school. And. At first I was like, okay, I get what you're talking about, but I don't. So how do I know when to do what how do I know when to tweak all these things? And he said, Understanding how I was going to know that without having 20, 30 plus years of experience behind the chair. So we then heard because my sister actually worked for the same company as she's a hairstylist as well as Kim used to. So she was like, you know what? I know her. And she's been talking about the same thing you guys, or what my owner was teaching. and I think she's got it more, not figured out, but more streamlined. She's got the system for this, yeah. Yes. So my boss went to the first certification, she became an educator, and she came back, taught me some things, and I was like, that stuff makes sense. What you're saying now makes more sense. Because my owner, she was a great hair cutter, but she didn't know how to teach. Those things that she knew. I completely understand that, yeah. I am definitely not a very formally trained haircutter, obviously I've gone through cosmetology school, I've had, what are we at now, 12 years behind the chair as well, but I don't know if I could teach it either, because a lot of it is just I don't know, that's just how it works. I know what stood out to me the most, and I will say I do not have a math brain like Annette and probably also like you, Vanessa, but what has always stuck with me the most is my school that I went to, my cosmetology school, the owner of it was a barber as well, he was a licensed barber, and the one thing about haircutting that always stuck with me the most, and he was telling this story, this analogy or whatever about, a guy sculpting a frog out of a big log or a piece of wood and he was sculpting a frog and they said how do you make it look like a frog and he just said I take away everything that doesn't look like a frog and like that made sense to me so I'm very curious to hear because I think there's a lot more details of what you're saying but like I agree. When they used to talk about 90 degree this, 45 degree that, elevation this, tension this I was always just meh, okay to me, I'm like, whatever doesn't look like a frog, take that away. That makes no sense to me. Are you very analytical, type A as well? Is that why it clicked with you? Or what was it about this system that was like, this is it. This makes sense. I will, I'll be honest and I said I did like math. I did not like geometry, like school, I was more of an algebra person. Okay, but I won't, I wouldn't consider myself a math person. Okay. I would say before I took head shape matters I was definitely more of a creative cutter, I guess is what we would call ourselves where I'm just going to, Cut hair until I like how it falls and then we're gonna roll with it. Yeah. But do I know what I'm doing? Not really. Fair. Not really. I would say now I've definitely become more breaking things down, but what the system helped me do and it was interesting when I came back from my certification. Like you said, things just clicked more. That theory that we learned in cosmetology school, some of it clicked, some of it from the curriculum, some of it was maybe we've interpreted it from beauty school. I don't want to say it's completely wrong because I think those are things that we do need to learn. I just think head shape matters made them make more sense. And also made me think about hair. Differently or more in depth than I was previously. So when I came back to the salon and started cutting, all the stylists were like, we for sure see a difference in your haircutting. It's a pretty big not that it was bad before, but we definitely notice a difference and it didn't take me overnight to This it took definitely working it in little by little into the salon, but It definitely, like you said, it's made me become a better problem solver. It's made me become far more knowledgeable. And like you said, it's just made me understand things a little bit more. And even during consultations, having clients be like, I've had this struggle for so long, nobody's, it, I don't understand why I have the struggle. Let's take a deeper dive. look at your structure and see what could be causing it. And not even necessarily head shape, but it's made me look more into what's your texture like down there. What are your growth patterns looking like? So do you have to be mathematical? No. I'm like, there's definitely some people who I would say to your question earlier, is this for everybody? I would say no, like as much as I want everybody to take this education. If you're somebody who is comfortable where you're at and you're not, like you said, it takes some training. It's not going to be, you're coming to a class, you're going to be an expert in it the next day. You're going to need to invest. It's in your time and your craft. Yeah, and it sounds like hair cutting, and I think a lot of people listening to this can relate, because you go to beauty school and it was that example, like I said, of take away everything that doesn't look like a product, sounds like there was a ton of gray area. To a lot of people, there still is a ton of gray area. You figured it out. your clients are happy. You're doing great haircuts. It lights you up creatively, like it works. But then you guys are also over here. Like we really have a really good system. Like not saying you have to learn it, but once you see it, it's not really gray area anymore. There's clarity here. So if you want that clarity here, it is. So tell us more about what is in the theory or what is Head Shape Matters? So we essentially break down four different sections. We want you to be able to understand head shape. we want you to understand your cutting angles and why you're choosing those cutting angles understanding how just gravity impacts. Those as well as knowing what you want your overall shape and haircut to look like. So those are our main four factors. Now, we do have different ways that you can learn this, we do have a shorter version, which is a little less intimidating. And it's more so with your cutting angles. What do these cutting angles do? What how you can manipulate your shape based on your cutting angles. Essentially you can formulate a haircut. So how you would formulate hair color, you can create a haircut formula as well. We call that formulated hair cutting. So there is a little bit of math involved, but as we always say, if you can figure out your bills or if you can balance a checkbook, you can do this. It's simple addition and subtraction. You can write a budget. If you can formulate your hair color. We're all business owners, so we know math. Totally. Everybody knows math. What version do you like? What is your take on all of this? I like the complex version just because it gives you all of the information. And even though you get all the information, you don't necessarily have to use all of the information for every haircut. That I personally have found I've found my patterns that I've seen for clients like, okay, if they want like a shoulder length, shoulder to chin length bob, I'm going to use these projection angles. And I get. A really good haircut. But if I've noticed that the back isn't laying quite right, I can actually find their head shape. I can actually go in and tweak the formula that I used and get an even better haircut the next time. Client is going to be super happy with the one that they got, but. I'm going to be even happier with the tweaked version. Because it's doing what you know it's going to do. And I think that's a struggle of just as creatives okay, I'm going to give this my best shot. But it's not, sometimes it doesn't behave how you wanted it to. And it's oh, why can't I figure out what that is? Do I need to use my thinning shears more? So that is really fascinating. Yeah, so I know, but I want to say that using the system, your cuts become so much more consistent and honestly, You can see what you did the time before. And so haircutting actually becomes quicker because you don't have to go back and use your thinning shears to take away or blend. Yeah. Wow, that's really interesting. All right, Vanessa, I know you got stuff behind you, and so for those of you that are listening on audio, obviously try your best to explain what you're doing, but this will also exist on YouTube, and we have some actual things being presented behind Vanessa. You want to share with us what you got? So yeah, so I have taken these are actually five right five of my own clients that I have measured their head shapes, and then I've just cut them out on foam board so you can see first of all just how different they are. And I can certainly like you said send you a picture of it a little bit closer up. Okay. But essentially what I did is. So I have foam board of different head shapes. This is essentially from their center back of their head. And then I have yarn that's all five inches. And essentially they were all cut 90 degrees from the head shape. I think you actually have to do it for state boards, if I'm not mistaken. So I have all these different head shapes. And first of all, you can see just how either short or tall each head shape is. So just how different that is, or even neck lengths. Like this one has a pretty, she has a pretty long neck. So her head shape is actually Quite short as far as creating shape, but her neck is quite she's got a nice, a long neck. But essentially what we wanted to show and that was actually like, I think showing how to create a round shape is a great example. So that's why we chose 90 degrees. Because it should essentially give us a round shape, or at least that's what we're taught. Keep going. So this, the one on the end here is actually probably the my client has the most round shape. So I would say, If I did 90 degrees on her shape would come out fairly rounded. But if you look at this one, and I believe this center one here, they actually are quite flat within their crown area. So they're going to get a pretty heavy. weight line in that midsection of their haircut. even though it's cut properly at 90 degrees, it actually doesn't create that rounded shape. So they're all slightly a little bit more graduated, a little bit more angular. This client, she's a little bit more slightly octagon shaped. she actually falls pretty flat. Her shape would actually. Pretty layered I would say, so it wouldn't be quite rounded, but if we took especially these two, if we took their guides a little bit shorter on top, we would actually create, that's how we could tweak it to make it slightly more rounded on their head shape. So what we can do is we can formulate, if we know what lengths they want to work with, and what they, what their end result is. All we need to know is what their head shape is to actually formulate this haircut for them so they get the shape that they want so we can actually do all that prior to cutting anything. So we're not going in and this is not what I wanted. Like Annette said, we can do one of two things we can come up with a formula. Then see how the shape is laying tweak as accordingly. Or if we do the more extensive way and we find all this information out as far as head shape and everything prior to cutting, we can formulate that haircut and then we can just cut it and then the client's going to get the shape that they want. We're going to have a formula. We only have to do that part once. Head shapes don't change unless they have a surgery or something, but we would only have to do that once. And then now we have a map that if they ever want to change their style, as long as they bring in an inspiration picture or we do a thorough consultation, we can adjust their formula accordingly. And so we have a haircut that fits them, I'm like, can you tell people's head shapes before you measure? Have you gotten like a knack to it now that you can tell if people have are more, straight, more round or not really? I always say once you become a little bit more familiar, we have all these tools that we can use to help. Like we use a protractor, we use our comb to see the head shape, and we can label it. But once you do become a little bit more comfortable in it, the first thing I always, which, I think most salons do or hairstylists do is do a scalp massage. Understand like before, like just feel what their head shape is. So I would say I always do when I do a haircut, I always do a scalp massage one. They don't necessarily know what I'm doing. Yeah. It feels good to them, but I'm feeling like, is there anything I just need to be aware of? Oh, we totally, I can think of clients that have drop offs that you don't realize because their hair is so thick back there. do they have a flat spot? Do they have a, like you said a pronounced occipital, are these things that are going to cause me some issues possibly with the haircut that they want? So after all these years, I can easily say yes, doing a scalp massage, I can pretty much know the head shape I'm working with. But if I do want to be a little bit more detailed, I'll actually separate and look at. Yeah. I forgot that a protractor even existed. So I'm curious when you guys teach these classes I'm sure you could probably go either way with it, either double down on it and make it an experience for your clients and let them see that side of it. Or are you like just doing this in the back of your head and the client really isn't aware of the experience? I would say it goes both ways. My clients are definitely familiar with the experience. I don't, me personally, I don't make it an experience, but we do have stylists who do and you can obviously offer. We call it a head shape analysis. Okay, as Just a whole nother experience for them. So we would recommend that they come in for a pre consultation either just before a scheduled haircut, but essentially you would charge accordingly. Because time is money, right? So you would charge and that would be their experience where you get all their measurements dig dive deep into what style they're looking for. Like you said, you don't really have to offer this. I would say once unless they maybe want to try a whole new style where you would have to come up with a new formula. But once you have that then it's just keeping up with that formula and like you said doing minor tweaks, if they want something just slightly different or if you want to see something slightly different. But clients actually find it quite fascinating. And I'm sure, when you pull out a tape measure or a protractor or whatnot, they're definitely like, they know what they're doing. It's a total experience. and you know there's people that have, nobody can cut my hair right, or like, where they would, if they came across a website that had this detailed explanation, they'd be like, that's the person that I needed, I've been searching for this forever, because a lot of people are just over here winging it. So that's fascinating. Go ahead, Annette, what were you gonna say? I was just gonna say that clients do notice a difference, because we approach haircuts totally different from what They're probably getting down the road. Because we would section off hair differently and we use one inch levels and stuff. And we're holding the hair away from the head differently as well. And clients, I'll, For new clients I'll ask them halfway through. I was like, are you noticing that this is a different type of haircut? And they're like, yes. Okay. So what are the tools in your tool belt? Cause now I'm hearing level. I'm hearing production, like actually what is happening? I need to know. Cause I've never experienced this. So obviously scissors, but in a comb, but my comb has measurements on it. Down to a quarter inch. And then let's see, a tape measure to measure longer hair that is longer than the comb. Huh. Vanessa's got a comb that she's showing. So is this a Hatché Matters comb or where do we find this? This is not. This is actually it's a YS Park comb. It's called a guide cutting comb. Okay. I think it's number 38. I think there's like 39. So there's a nine inch and a seven inch, but essentially there's just a ruler down the spine. So this is not our comb, but we really like it, But yeah, so this is a comb that we like just because they do have The quarter inch, half inch three quarter inch marking. And again, any comb with at least inch measurements are definitely going to be more helpful then. Yep. Wow. Clips. But more of the deck build clips versus the like bigger clips. Vanessa, do you happen to have. An example of that handy. You're more prepared than I am. I probably have some clips even in here, but I was going to say just the skinny little metal clip. And I actually use an athletic band around my arm to hold my clips. Just like little, yeah, little clips, no matter, like these are wise park ones, but honestly, I think my favorite ones are just like, Cheap box of 12 from Amazon. And then what else do I have in here? so now this is part of the patent. This is actually just a really small copy, but it's my pocket copy that I made myself, but essentially what Kim created is a projection chart. A map essentially has you longitude, latitude, you find your point. What essentially she's created is you have your head shapes, you have your guide lengths, and then these are all the angles at which the hair will fall into based on the length of hair and the head shape that you're working on. And then the cutting angle that you used. So it will tell you exactly how it falls. So this is, again, this is the more in depth class. How long is that in depth class versus a shorter one? It's so we offer, but it's a four day certification where you get all the information, or we do offer a five week online course as well where you would follow videos. And then check in with an educator about once a week. We do have the shorter version, which is essentially formulating a haircut, understanding your projection angles and understanding either inspiration or like parameters that your guest has of haircut points would be our formulated hair cutting, which is just two days. Wow. Very interesting. I not have you, I can't help them. My brain goes there, but I'm like, can we like train chat GPT on this? The robots are going to be cutting hair very soon. I've never heard of it being formulated like that, but I'm like, there's no chance that you can't plug that in. And I guess how long does the formulation take? Cause I did share this with the ladies before we hit record that there's one member of soul tribe that shared with me that she did take a class. And she was like. Ooh, that's not for me. It just did not line up in her brain. She was like, that was very complicated, very complex. And that was hard for her to sit down and write out the formula. How long does it take to formulate that, and then tell us more about why taking something to a piece of paper or to that color coded, tool that you have, what does that get done? So in the beginning I'm not going to lie, it probably will take you longer than you want. Yeah, I think with any training, you're not going to, again, become an expert within the amount of time that you take the class, you do have to go back into the salon and you have to work at just working on your skills working on your craft so you definitely become faster. Some people definitely can formulate fairly quickly in their head, right off the bat. I would say for me, it's going to take I need to write it down. Even though I've been doing this for a long time, I still like to write it out. I appreciate that. So I can see that. But I definitely, I would say I wouldn't take more than about 15 minutes. Math is definitely about patterns. So even with hair color how overwhelmed do you feel when you first start I wanted to be a colorist, that's where the money's, get was being made at the time. And so I was like, I want to, that's what I want to do. I personally did not love the feeling of, okay, so I'm just supposed to, I follow this process, finding the natural level, what's our desired, all this. And then I have to put it on somebody's head, wait a half hour and hope to God it works. Yes, yeah, totally. So I actually learned about myself that I did not care for color. I love color, but that was not my strong suit. But it sounds like you really understand hair cutting and we are more drawn to something we really understand. Absolutely. So I like the fact that once I do these things or once I cut things it's done. I see it. This is what it falls into versus the waiting process. Like I said, there are some people who get it and there are some people like myself who it was like, I don't have the confidence or I have to keep working at it until I became comfortable and seeing the results. I think seeing the results is the biggest Oh my gosh. But I love that analogy because I do think you're right. It's almost the norm. We go through beauty school, we hear all these little comments, we started a new salon, we hear these comments, but I don't know about everybody listening, but it probably took me a good two years before I could go into a back room, fully formulate by myself without checking in with anybody and knowing that I was going to get the results. We just know that. And your salon owners, your mentees, they'll say that, your mentors, they'll be like, It's going to take time. It's going to take time. And I don't think that's as much ingrained in us about cutting, but I actually love that analogy is it just does take time. And eventually you do it so many times that you understand it like the back of your hand and there's no fear. There's no question. It's just second nature. So I love that comparison. And I would say after my certification class, I started incorporating little by little behind the chair I worked in a larger salon, so I used a lot of stylists as models as well, but I would say I didn't feel it was probably a year after certification that I actually was like, I do know what I'm doing. I, or just realizing that now I feel more comfortable. I feel more confident. I have the process down. Now, like you said, it was, that's when I felt officially officially felt like I got it. And it's not like it happens overnight, but yeah, I'll be honest with you. I would probably say it was about a year when it was like, I got this. I can do this quickly. Yeah. I would say similar timeline. Just because you, like I said, I did find those patterns. And once I found those patterns, I started feeling more comfortable. And when I formulate, I don't necessarily formulate for every client, but if I do feel that they do have a flat spot, I'm going to pull out my projection chart and I just do a little mental okay, what is the angle based on that? Yeah. Yeah. And I do have a calculator at my station. Because that just helps me formulate quicker. So I'm sorry, I think people should double down on that. I think that's such a fascinating experience for a client and just so different and totally something that sets you apart. So again, I don't know if that's the direction you guys go with education or not, but I definitely think people who are as obsessed with this as you guys, like I would be double doubting on that. So I know you said there's an online option. There's in person classes I guess what does the entire company of hsm look like right now? Is this like a you launch do you do How many classes a year? If somebody wanted to get into this world and start learning where would they start? Honestly, I would probably say, the direction that we're going in and that we're seeing as far as just in the industry is, I think four days is a lot to dedicate out of the sun, especially nowadays. So right now we do have several certifications this year. Usually we've put several out. I think we're going to try to focus on. And one thing that our educators have requested is just having a bigger community so having slightly larger classes So I think we're going to start focusing on having one big certification next year and then just filling our books with classes and going out to the salons Like you said, having specific locations. I think that's where our focus is for 2025. Like you said, we do have some options still this year. We have a certification in Tampa, Florida, which will be the four days. We have a certification in Chicago, which is four days. Chicago is April 6th through the 9th. And we have actually we are doing a custom class in Nebraska and that will be teaching that one. So that one's a specific haircut. So we can do custom classes like that where if you feel like your salon is struggling with a certain look, we can actually just have that be the focus. That would be a one day class. That will be out at Hype Salon in Lincoln, Nebraska. We have a flawless layers option. I'm working on a mini online course about bobs, and so I'm thinking about that being an option that we can obviously set up, but that we're looking to actually go out into the salon. So if you're interested in hosting, please feel free to reach out to either myself or I think you have the email. It's Kim at headshapematters. com. Email her and we can get something set up. Yeah. So basically an email is the best way to do it. Is there a way for them to opt into your email list so that people can hear what's happening in the future, especially if you get a big one going? I think that's a great idea. Correct. You can subscribe. Yeah, subscribe. Is that what we call it now? Yeah. Join the email list. Yeah, how do people stay in the loop? You can sign up on our website at headshapematters. com Okay, and I'll put that in the show notes in the description as well. Okay, cool. I feel like I've learned a lot. I'm inspired. I'm like over here Lisa, you have enough education on your plate, but I'm like no, I really would love to, I would love to know more, so I think maybe eventually I might have to crack that world open. Yeah. It sounds fascinating. Annette or Vanessa, anything that we didn't touch on that you feel like people should know, anything we missed, or do you feel pretty good? I would, I guess I would just say welcome all hair nerds. If you're somebody who just loves education and loves just knowing more think that's an awesome thing to, like you said, just check us out, be a part of, I think we'll surprise you. Is it, again, caution, is it easy? It will take work. It's definitely switching your mind set, but. But it's so good for us, especially us that have been licensed for so long that have just been learning the same things over and over again. I'm always thinking like, how can I improve myself? How can I do things better and better myself from a personal growth standpoint? And I was having a conversation with my father in law the other day and he's coming towards retirement. And I was like, what are you, how are you going to spend your time? And he's I think I might get my PhD in business. and it really inspired me though. I journal every morning and I was just thinking should I get a business degree? Like what are things I can be doing? Cause your brain gets so used to the same thing over and over again. And as I'm hearing you ladies talk about this, I'm like, this is a really cool way to just crack into a deeper, and is it gonna be, for me, it would not be natural, but I don't blame you, Vanessa, for prefacing that with it, because you don't want people to come to this class and be like, oh God, what did I sign myself up for? It is a different concept, but those that are ready to go there and challenge your mind to think in a way that it's not used to thinking and then clearly give it the time that it takes. But then, I can hear from talking to you ladies, you feel so incredibly confident in the system because it's, Math and you can't correct that. And it's just such a great feeling. My biggest aha moment through all of this was it was maybe six months after my certification. I had a client that came in and said, whatever you did to my hair the last time, keep doing it. And I was like, great, I can certainly do that. I know exactly what I did because we had a formula, but I was like what did you like so much about it? And she said, I loved your haircuts before, but honestly, your haircuts only lasted about three weeks in. And so then I had about three weeks of struggling with it until I came in for my haircut and she's that's always how my haircuts were. Yeah. But she said this haircut, I actually felt like I didn't really need to come in. I want to come in at my six week mark because I want to keep things fresh. But she's my haircut lasted the full six weeks. I didn't have any issues styling it. I felt like my shape lasted. And for me, I actually was just like, I am so sorry. You felt that way. She's I know what I never told you because it felt like It's always been that way. And I think people just assume, Oh, it's been three weeks. I'm due. Yeah. And we, of course, three weeks is insane. So we're not going to go in that soon, but I'll just scrape by for another three weeks. I think that's fascinating. And I think that's another thing. Those that are interested in doubling down on this, And I've heard, Jamie, Annette, I've heard people that I know are certified in head shape matters, they'll say, my clients don't need to come in that frequently. And I allow them that lifestyle, but then you get to charge more for your haircuts. If you can really, truly interweave that into your branding and your marketing and follow through with it, that calls for a higher price point if they don't need to be in as frequently. And I think nowadays with all of just business in general. That's one thing where I think what sets us apart is after you take our set of certification, after you work through those practices, you definitely have the ability to now raise your haircutting prices and say, I can customize this to you. I can make this an experience for you. This is what sets me apart from other people. And so I don't think we really have too many ways on how to. Up sale a haircut nowadays. Unfortunately, it's a lot more let's bring in this product. Let's bring in extensions. This is a way where you can actually like one, you can create a whole other service around your haircut. As far as. Coming up with that say additional half hour service of mapping out your head shape and formulating a haircut for you. And then just keeping the clients you have because nobody else can cut their hair like you. Yeah. It's a great experience to learn and if you're interested in learning about it we're always happy to talk more about it. Like I said, ready we're here and you have to be ready to kind of change. Change old habits, I would say. Yep. Yep. All right. I will leave all of the information that I got from you guys down. Tell me what you're thinking. I feel like we haven't mentioned that with Headshape Matters, we actually try to teach you the why behind what we're doing and why we're doing it versus just saying, okay, hold the hair this way and then we do this You hold it this way, and you don't really know why you're doing it. You're not just repeating something that you taught, but you understand it holistically. Yes. So it, I do feel like it, we are just so passionate and we do want everybody to know it. And yeah, once they're ready for it, but it's worth mentioning that because there are a lot of people that are like I took a class and I'm just become this monkey mimicking what the class told me to do. But it is a different feeling when you're like, I understand why I'm doing this and something could go wrong. I just go to like color formulation. Like I could hit a roadblock, but I know how to fix it. I know what to do for that. So I love that. I think that's incredible. Thanks for plugging that in as well. Amazing. Any other thoughts from either of you? No, I feel pretty good. I feel good. You guys have inspired me. I'm definitely, I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'm definitely going to put that on my list of challenging my brain to think a different way than it's used to, and it probably is going to be annoying and uncomfortable. But yeah, I will definitely one day crack that open and I will leave the information for all of you listening that are interested, that want to learn more. I will leave everything in the show notes, in the YouTube description and then email you said Vanessa is definitely best. You and Kim, right? Are the two people to reach out to? Amazing. Correct. Thank you, ladies. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. And I will talk to you all next week. Bye.