038 - A Different Take on Woo - An Open Minded Conversation with Hunter Donia

Welcome to Stylist Soul Tribe Conversations! I'm your host, Lisa Huff, and in this episode, I am joined by Hunter Donia for an engaging and thought-provoking discussion on the concept of "woo." We dive deep into what "woo" means to us, exploring its various aspects such as energy, consciousness, and spiritual practices like meditation, manifestation, and intuition.

Hunter shares his analytical and skeptical perspective on woo, while I bring in my experiences and the positive impact woo has had on my life and business. We discuss the challenges and benefits of integrating woo into our professional lives, the ethical implications of capitalizing on spiritual concepts, and the importance of balancing tangible actions with intuitive insights.

Whether you're a firm believer in woo or a bit of a skeptic, this episode offers a balanced and open-minded conversation that will leave you with valuable insights on how to navigate these concepts in your personal and professional journey.

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Welcome to Stylist Soul Tribe Conversations. I'm your host, Lisa Huff. Over the last five years, I've coached hundreds of hairstylists and beauty industry professionals, helping them work their dream schedules exclusively with their dream clientele and earn their dream income. income, all while fostering genuine connections and lifelong friendships inside the beauty industry. And this podcast, we dive deep into abundance, manifestation, business building strategies, and creating a life that you are truly proud of both behind the chair and at home. Are you ready to embark on a journey of personal growth, success, and sisterhood, then hit that subscribe button now and get ready to experience the pure magic of Silas Old Tribe Conversations. Hello my friends! Well, I don't know if I should say like, we should leave this in. That would kind of almost add to it. Hi friend. Hi, hunter Hey Lisa. What's the team? Oh, I'm excited for this. Me hunter reached out to me last week. He kind of, he almost tried to trap me and I almost fell forward and I would've had a less productive stop, but, okay. Okay. To be fair, I texted. Okay, so sometimes guys, sometimes I just have a little bit of a difficult time showing up for the podcast to like record in a day, particularly if I'm just not feeling super inspired. And sometimes getting on and having like a live conversation with somebody else is a really, really great hack for me to be able to actually like get it done because it's a little bit more natural and enjoyable for me to do so in that way. So I text Lisa and I just say, Hey, are you free right now? And then she calls me. So it's not like, it's like you called me. Okay. You called me and you didn't ask me what it was about first. I didn't know if it was crisis and I'm just like, can we record a podcast right now? I'm like, Oh shoot. I'm not that free. No, I have a lot. I have a big to do list I should do, but let's do one next week. So that's why we're here. And I totally agree. And anybody listening to this, just think about what it would be like to just sit Sit alone in a room and try to have an entire meaningful conversation with yourself. That makes sense. It is very difficult. I have a hard time doing solo podcast episodes as well. You're way better at it than me, but I don't blame you one bit when you just kind of hit that rut that you're like, I can only say so much to myself for so long before I even know if anything's making sense anymore. For real. And I, so it's been two and a half years now. So like, luckily, like I've gotten really comfortable with it at this point, but it still is hard. Particularly for me, it's because I'm. I'm only listening to myself and I'm not engaged in something in a conversation and so therefore I am overanalyzing every single thing that I say. I'm like overthinking everything I say and then I end up re recording things or like re saying things. I'll take, I'll take like ten takes, literally guys, like I will take ten takes of the first like, Five minutes of a podcast episode before I finally feel like, okay, I feel solidified in exactly like how, how I want to say it, what I want to say. And then I can go into a groove from there. But it's really hard sometimes, very much so. So today we're going to talk about woo, which is something that I. publicly talk about my love of Wu. I think Hunter loves Wu more than he realizes he loves it, but he'll always say that he's not super Wu and he's like, I think I might want to share that with people, but I don't want, I don't want to get like shunned because the Wu movement is real right now. And he, I'm like, You're, I love Hunter's brain. The way that you think about things brings me clarity all the time. I'm like, there is a rhyme and a reason, I'm sure, to your thoughts and your processes. I would love to hear them. You will probably convince me. And then as you shared some of them with me, I'm like, I agree with every single thing you're saying. But I also wrote some notes, which we didn't go over my notes on reasons why I still, despite even what you said, Really, really, really love woo. So then we'll see if you agree or disagree with those things even as well. Yeah. I'm looking forward to the conversation. And it kind of came up, came up as an idea for a podcast episode because I, in my like community and just like in conversations and even within my own team, because my team is woo woo themselves, like all their personalities and what they're interested in. They're very woo. We just like always joke around about how I'm so like woo adjacent and like, I'm like not into it. And I always just kind of like laugh it off. But I had like a moment recently where I had to, where I really took a step back and I was like, I think it's important for me to like explain why I may seem dismissive of the concept because it's not just because I think it's bullshit and I'm just like, it's bullshit and I'm not going to waste my time on that. It's, I do have like legitimate reasons for it, but then I also do, and you, you and other people in my life have made me kind of realize like, Oh, like I do kind of like dip my toes in, but in like ways that feel really good for me. And so in today's episode, I guess, like in this conversation that you and I have, like, what I would like to do is, is like explain the reasons why I tend to have a little bit of a I don't know, weird feeling around those things and why I kind of like to distance my way, my, myself from those things. But then also like how I believe it can actually be really good. And I want to disclaim just for anybody listening to this, that like, this is just like my own personal experience and like my own core values and like how I show up in my business and how I show up in my own life. And I believe that like, whatever. it takes for anybody to achieve, like, happiness and clarity, like, in their life, like, you pop off and you go ahead and do that. But I think, like, where the issue can, where the issue lies is how far we take some of those things and also, like, how other people, like, use those things and then exploit others to, for their own benefit. So we'll dive deep into all of that. Should we preface with what we even mean when we say woo? Cause I think that alone is, some people think it's like religious. Some people think it's manifestation. Some people have no idea what we're even talking about. Some people think it's meditation. Some people think it's yoga. Some people think it's like. A hippie head shop. Like, there's so many different thoughts of like, is it psychic mediums? Like, what are you even talking about when you say woo? So what is your perception when you say woo and what you're even talking about and referring to? Yeah, so I feel like, it's interesting you're asking me this because when I was like writing out my notes for this, particularly about like the things, the spaces in which I I do find usefulness for myself within this category. I was like, I was like, is this even considered woo? Right? Like, and I think, I think for everybody's, I don't know, field of study within this concept, it's going to be different definition for everybody within their own experience and what they've been exposed to, what they've learned, etc, etc. For me, it's like, it can go from, I don't know, like ancient teachings of like older civilizations and like what they believed and what they practiced and like monks and Buddhists and all that stuff, right? I feel like a lot of those concepts have influenced, and this might be very controversial for me to say this, but this is just my tea, like have influenced like the more like whitewashed like version of the modern Wu that we see today. And I think it's really important to even talk about it. There's some cultural appropriation around that. And maybe that's why you feel, you know, an adverse maybe. Who knows? It's a part of it. It's a part of it for sure. But then I also like and then there's the other side of it as well, which is like the crystals and the manifestation and like how energy moves and then like the universe and then the stars aligning. Right. And like, like that. That's like what I'm saying is like, it's difficult for me to really pinpoint exactly what it is. I guess I could definitely say what it's not. Like for me, like what is not Woo is just like tangible, literal, factual, data driven things. Or scientifically backed and proven things, like physical things that are, you could just like make real. As we get into it though, you will find that there are some scientifically bad things and you'll own those. But there's a lot that aren't. Yeah. Even if someone who's trying to sell you a 10, 000 course. Yeah. So that's like how I would pur that's like my own, like, Perceived notion of like what the general Wu umbrella kind of includes if, if I'm, if I'm trying my best, I guess. But what, what is it in your definition? Yeah. So I would just say, and this is really interesting to me because I chose as my identity to say I'm into Wu in like very formative years of my life. So like, I feel like my prefrontal cortex was developing when I was getting into these things. So I don't know how many of these things. Would have happened on their own as I became an adult and had a clearer outlook on the world. Like, whether I had woo to put myself into the category or if that was just happening simultaneously. So to me, woo, it's so weird to talk about. I would say it's like energy. It's an exchange of energy. It's the things that you can't put words to. Like I've read a lot of Wu books and it's like, who, who am I? Am I, is this is my body. So that wouldn't be me. This is my brain. That wouldn't be me. I can observe my brain. So like consciousness is its own thing. So I, that's like kind of my perspective is like energy, consciousness how energy, Works inside of the universe and how something as small as our thought maybe even if I can't right now sit down and scientifically prove it I Whether it's coincidental or not or again, then you can get really spiritual with it I don't know, you know everybody's faith and I don't think that that I don't want to say isn't relevant in this But like I think of it as all encompassing but to me, it's a very spiritual element, too and I have my own like Religious traumas and things that I've been to through that like sometimes these like all encompassing things for me It is a lot more of just like faith and spirituality, but it feels safer and more comfortable for me personally, right? So I would call it energy, but I agree everything we've talked about meditation, I guess falls under it crystals I guess falls under it, but then you can even say does astrology fall under it like it's so big but for me personally my Spiritual awakening, I'll call it. Like I just vividly remember a period in time when I really got into reading these things, researching these things and coming into my own like human. It was like law of attraction, mindset the energy that you put out is what comes back into you. And like, that really shaped my life when I noticed that started taking it serious and then my life drastically changed after that. So that's mine. So it's funny you bring up you touched on how, like, who am I? I literally am audibling a book right now. I think it's called I think it's called the untethered soul. I can't go into my phone right now because I'm using it as a second camera. But I think that's what it's called. And I have no idea who it's by off the top of my head. But it was explaining that and that it was like the first chapter. And they explain it in a really great way because you it like walks you through like understanding and like really noticing how you have like these thought patterns and noticing like how you are like the Observer of everything that's happening in the world and like, but who is the observer? Like, who actually are you and so that does make me feel like, right, like the like having consciousness or like having a soul, right? That, you know, that's like kind of like an unknown thing. Like there's no like proven actual science to that. And in that case, go ahead. Does that bother you? You being someone that wants like, do you sit and dwell on those things? Or you're just like, I know the research isn't there, so it doesn't even like for me, it's just like, it's not even like worth spending my energy trying to crack the code. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's just like, there's no end to it. So it's like, I might as well just not even worry about it or think about it too much, you know, but I did find find the explanation to be super interesting. And a little bit freeing too, you know, like how you are like this soul and like you get to like make the like decisions about how you live this life and all that stuff. I thought it was fascinating. But yeah, your definition of woo makes sense. And for me, like, I don't know, I just I've never said this publicly, I don't think, because I just get nervous about, like, you know, stigmas and things like that. But I do also think, like, I have a very slight touch of autism, because my dad probably definitely does, and my older brother does as well. And because of that, I also just have a really difficult time with, like, anything that isn't super relevant. provable or tangible. And that's why I'm so strategic. And that's why I think about things in such like a, like a direct perspective sometimes I feel like. And that also gives me a little bit of a block when it comes to this stuff as well, I feel like. But it's a gift in its own, and I, but I, I love that you just want to even just talk about it, cause, and I think for somebody like me, where, Hunter, I will hear you talk sometimes, and the way your analytical brain works is just, Truly, like I have, there are no things in my brain firing the way that they fire in your brain. So that's your own little touch. I have my own little touch and I almost Double down and just find myself leaning into and drawn to more of the less tangible How can you even explain that? I don't know. That's just what my, what I'm drawn to. That's what interests me. That's what, what, you know, I just feel pulled towards. So, I just think we're gonna have a really good conversation about one side to the other. So why don't we start, I know you have some bullet points and I really want to get into it, of the reasons specifically that you have that kind of dawned on you, where you're like, this is worth saying out loud and sharing. And I think they absolutely are, because when you share them with me, they're very, very important. legitimate and valuable. Yeah. So I guess like my first overall concern is just how, especially right now, like with how accessible digital marketing is, I think like it can very much easily prey on people in more desperate circumstances or situations. Like I see a lot of people who have taken these concepts and then ended up spent like charging a shit ton of money. For like whatever program or course or coaching or whatever it may be a retreat, whatever it may be like surrounding these concepts. And I think that there are people who are, I mean, especially right now, I mean, I don't think that there's ever been a time where us as humans have been more stressed out and in very desperate situations, particularly at our minds. And you know, when you're in that type of situation, you are looking for a solution. Any solution, like you're looking for any type of help to like, get out of it, you know, and like to get to another side of it. And I think that it's very easy for to take like traditional like psychology and marketing concepts and like, take something that actually Tangible and then like manipulate people into spending 10, 000 of thousands of dollars and then like saying like, Oh, if you join my program, then your life is gonna be perfect. And you are going to manifest your, I don't know, your bad relationship away or your hatred of yourself away, etc, etc. Like whatever it may be, or your money problems away. I mean, obviously, that's like a really manipulative thing, you know, like, say, to even, you know, think or say that or advertise that. And so I just think that becomes very problematic and the capitalization of it all and like the exploitation of it all like really turns me off which makes me want to separate myself from it as much as I possibly can, you know. Yeah, because you don't ever want a message that feels like it's coming across as that, even if, I mean, I know you just held a retreat in Savannah where they do lots of what, from, an aesthetic would look like really woo things, you don't want to be like, come here and everything will change your life, I think the, this was another thing I said to you, of one of my biggest struggles with it, Is the exploitation, absolutely, that's a fantastic point. I think we can all relate to that and think of, you know, things that we've, we've seen that happen before and how quickly, you know, toxic and destructive that can be. What's also trippy and what I think attracts people to creating content like that is the safeguard of like, well, if it doesn't work, then like you didn't do it right. Like you didn't use your brain. Brain right because whatever you think is what becomes real. And I was saying this to Hunter when I was also going through my spiritual awakening, my prefrontal cortex was, you know, forming whatever was happening. I was like really into this stuff. I was really researching. I was really just like figuring out who I am. And I was like fully drinking the Kool Aid and I was like. Every thought I've ever thought has brought me to where I am today. My thoughts right now are going to dictate my future. And like, that's, that's the fact. And I was really like, retaining that and feeling like 100 percent truth about that. What my struggle is, and I can't tell you what the right or wrong answer is, because there are parts of this that I do still love, but I vividly remember during that period of time, my sister's very close friend, so we were all like family friends at the time, her one year old son was diagnosed with brain cancer. And I just remember like, It was the first situation in my life where, like, I was my kids were young. Bennett was about the same age as him at the time. And I just remember thinking, like, It's just those like hits of mortality when you're just like whoa, like life is really intense and real And I remember coming into this like spiritual Trying to find this like understanding of where I fall on that and I think people from any religion will struggle with things like this Why would God ever do that? Like, you know, this is just a human experience But that's when I really was like, okay toxic positivity can be really real and like someone fucking explained to me How a one year old Could think his way into having brain cancer. Like clearly not every single thing is formed from that. Right. But, but then like, like something that I have written down for like the tangibles of it, right. Is in a way in which you, cause I'm, I'm always very careful, like in my business coaching about this, or even when I'm supporting a friend about this of like toxic positivity or gaslighting somebody, or trying to like look at the bright side, because I've done grief training, like in which. You are learn how to support other people through grief or hard times, and it's really, it's really important. And like, most like studies show that it's actually best for you to just be there and acknowledge the fact that it sucks versus say like, Oh, but here's the bright side of things or but at least right? Like a lot of people will say like, Oh, but at least they're going to heaven or something like that. Right. But in actuality, like that does not That's a lot of the time that doesn't really help people. Everybody has different preferences and everybody has different experiences for like what would help them or not, right? But the majority of the time it's not very helpful. What's helpful is like validating somebody and how they feel and like comforting them and like making that person a real person who ever passed away, but specifically if we're talking about grief, but on the flip side of that, I do believe like Because this is tangible, because this is real, like this because like this is inarguable, like this is factual, that like, whatever experiences happen in life are going to put you into your next phase of life are going to set you up for your next phase of life, right? And there always will be good and bad that comes out of those experiences, right? And just because there is good, That may come out of it doesn't mean that there's not going to be any bad and vice versa. Right. So I think that like to just for people to be able to take back like their power and to be able to at least make the most out of a situation. I think it's important to acknowledge like Two things can be true, like that this really fucking sucks, but also maybe this is preparing me for the future and it's putting me where I'm supposed to be. And so it's like, yes, like everything in the, like everything in the universe, everything, every experience that you have is like happening for a reason, possibly because it literally is going to happen for a reason. Like there is going to be something that happens after this. Right. And that's going to put you in that, whatever's next in some sort of circumstance in either, you know, A better way or a worse way, whatever it may be. But I don't know if I'm explaining what I'm trying to explain. I know it's so trippy to talk about all this. Cause it's just like, it's so not tangible that how do you even put it into words? But I think that going back to the exploitation point and the manipulation and things like that, you will find when, you know, we can all, I'm sure there's specific people popping up in everybody's minds. You don't need to say anybody, any names or anything like that. But. When things go bad, like they're never sharing any of the bad things because it's like, well, wouldn't you manifest your way out of that? You know? And so that's where it gets very trippy and it gets weird, really, really weird to capitalize on it. And I fully a hundred percent relate to you in that by saying like, All of your dreams are going to come true, all of your problems are going to be solved, all of this, because one, that's not life, and like, what would even be the point if that was the case? But you just never hear ownership of that, and I think that's also really why people can choose to get that niche, like, go into that niche, because if it doesn't work out, then you didn't journal properly, you didn't whatever, you know? Yeah. That is icky. I, you know, I had a, because I'm so like, because I'm so diligent about separating myself from that and even being a part of it, like at all is particularly when it comes to my brand. Right. Because I really take my voice seriously. Like I, it's become really real for me that When I say something like people will actually listen to it and like people will actually take action on it Like that is really a ripple effect in their life and other people's lives because of it. That's a big responsibility 100 percent and like I take that super fucking seriously and so I had a very large influencer within our industry like huge like very big who is Very fucking woo woo, like intensely woo woo reach out and ask to be on a podcast and like collaborate one way or another and I just like ended up having to say no, and I like told her why, and she like tried to like tell me like all the reasons why like it probably would be fine and like You know, whatever may be. And I was just like, I can't do it. Like, and it's that, and although, you know, that would be great opportunity for me, great exposure for me. It just like, like you said, like, I don't want anybody to ever feel like, Oh, well I'm not making the money that I'm not, that I want to make because I'm just not. Like thinking my way or manifesting hard enough or dreaming big enough for myself or something like that Can I say my version of woo hunter and I remember when that situation happened I'm, so proud of you for that but my version of woo like is that was like kind of woo of you because your intuition spoke to you so So clearly and so loudly. And like, that's what Wu means to me, not just tag along with the next person who's like posting sunshine and rainbows, but like you had an internal gut reaction of like, this isn't the right thing to do, even if it seems like it could be a lot of opportunities, like that to me is a spiritual experience personally. I, and I have this, that, that down is one thing that I, that I don't know if there necessarily is much. tangible explanation for it, I guess that I will say like my intuition and my gut have always been a thing that I found to be powerful. And like something that sometimes I don't follow it, and I really regret not following it. Or like, I do follow it. And it was like a fantastic decision, right? I might even my, my EA Ashley, she was like, you say that you're not Wu. But Hunter, like, I hear you talk, and I see how you make decisions. And like, you are a very intuitive person. And I was like, honestly, like, that's true. Like, I feel like that is a some woo that I can get on board. Totally. And can I touch on this? Because I also feel like I found that my intuition and I found that through this like experience I'm telling you. And again, could I have gotten really involved with the church and have the exact same thing happen? And that was just what I was seeking out was something towards the untangible. Maybe. Could it have been any other direction? Probably. But for me, That intuition was like, I was never even, I never even knew that that was like a thing. And I, the way that I was raised, And again, my parents were never trying to do anything wrong, but even still, when I'm around my family, high vibration conversations, now that I'm looking at it, literally never took place. And so for me, discovering this was just like, I literally never thought about this. I used to wake up and think like, what's the next problem? What's the next struggle? This is gonna go wrong. The president is gonna ruin everybody's life. The weather's gonna, you know, this bad thing's gonna happen. This asshole's gonna cut me off in traffic. Like, that was the only thing that I think my brain was conditioned to do. I feel like I'm being a little bit harsh on my parents because I'm sure it's not quite that strong. But once I read, for me it was The Secret, which is really cheesy, but that's what it was for me. Once I read that and I just realized, like, When you think like that all the time, no shit, you're going to be upset all the time. You're going to be angry all the time. You're not going to make any positive impact on the world or other people's lives because all you're looking for is problems. And I'm assuming you weren't raised in a similar way, just from the conversations we've had as we've become friends that for me, and I think for other people who didn't have that, like conditioning from a young age, it was what it took to really shake that and. Break that completely or else I would have just continued with that thought process. And I wouldn't have created anything of subsidence because my whole life would have been about the next complaint, the next complaint, the next complaint. Yeah. And you know, I think that's where it comes back to. It's like, whatever it's going to take for you to get there. Fantastic. Cause for me, like my translation of that and what I would like to practice more often is just the real life, like just being like the awareness of. the primal instincts that you have to always be focusing on the negative. Survival. Yeah. You know, like, and that's how, that's where this is like, scientifically, like, it makes sense for me, you know, it's like, it's like, this is our primal instincts. Like, this is exactly what our brain wants to do all the time. But then having the awareness that like, hey, you kind of do have like, at least the option to try to focus on other things or to look in a different direction. And and, and wake up and not have that same narrative or story all the time. And you know, again, like however you get there, like fucking fantastic for you, dude. Like you lock the code, like that's fantastic. You know, now let me ask you this, right? Because I've noticed that I've noticed multiple times when speaking with you and just seeing how you move that I think you create really strong boundaries for yourself around like negative energy and things like that. Do you find it to still like, although you're You have learned these concepts and they've been really helpful for you, like, do you find that you still have like, moments of vulnerability or do you find like, like tell me, like completely tell me like, tell me about that. Like, tell me about that. Like how do you make it so like, do you have like moments of fucking real life where it's just like, like not everything is fucking like this, Crystal's not gonna heal me right now. Like, I don't know. Like tell me what the, now you know that you're, are you asking me that for people to hear or are you I'm asking you for people. I'm asking you for people. Okay. Abso fucking lutely. Again, we are humans. That is instinct. I will also say, the people that are closest to me, I think, get to see the worst, which is probably true for everyone, version. Like, my husband would be like, you are not the most positive person that I know because he's my safest person. He's the person that hears my complaints. He's the, you know, so like, but it's also, you know, you think of this, like, sphere of, of relationships and things with humans. Once you're not in my, like, sphere. Super inner, I get very protective against complaint. Like if you, if like a hundred, you call me, it does not bother me because like, if, if people close in my life are like having struggles, then that's one thing. But when there's people, I don't know how to explain it that are not in that really close sphere. I am like, keep. a 10 foot pole between me and that because I just don't, I think it is like triggering for me because I see, especially if they're complaining about things that like other people in my life complain about that I've chosen to distance from that seem very useless and a waste of time and energy. So absolutely, but I also put this for a reason why I do really like Woo is for me. It pulls me out of a rut pretty quickly. Now let me also just say I have empathy for people who are actually struggling with depression, anxiety. I'm not diagnosed with any of those things, but like I don't stay down for very long because like I sit down for a little bit, but it's going back to, and for me, this is just what I'm drawn to. It's, You stay in this, you're going to keep bringing more of this. And so that's like that constant reminder. And like gratitude is a huge thing for me. Like I really just, for me personally, that's like the answer to getting out of any low point. And I know that doesn't do the trick for everybody. Some people have chemical imbalances where a little bit of gratitude isn't going to do it, but that's just like, that's why I love Woo is cause it's always there, even when shit is getting really hard. It's like, I can tap back into my own like quiet space and whatever and I can quickly pull myself out of it by just knowing my base level is still high vibe or whatever you want to call it. And this is where it's like, I totally support this. Like whatever tools you need to like You know, be able to do that is like so beautiful, like that's fucking fantastic. Like that's so awesome. But now on the flip side, here's my next bullet point. So my next bullet point is I feel like, I mean, and this kind of goes into Like a little bit of what we've already talked about, but I feel like it can distract from uncomfortable action that needs to be taken, right? So like, instead of doing the thing that you know you have to do, you'll distract yourself from it by finding the easiest solution, which is another primal instinct. Like we, as humans want to exert the least amount of energy possible in order to get like the highest impact in return. And so we will, and we don't want to be uncomfortable, like naturally, like we are protecting ourselves from discomfort as much as we possibly can. And so it may be more comfortable for you. To lean into some of the woo concepts versus like, and it might be even more inspiring and shiny to versus, you know, just fucking showing up and posting on social media, like you're supposed to like, like the things that you like, no, are actually going to fucking make a difference. You know what I mean? So what are your thoughts about that? Yeah, I, I just, even that last sentence gave me a whole different kind of tangent than I was even going to go on. Okay. So I absolutely think that people use it as a crutch distraction. Yes. Next shiny thing. Yes. But even once you've been in this space for a while, a lot of people will use it as a crutch when they don't want to take action. They'll just continue to heal and heal and heal and heal and heal, it's like almost like. you do some work and then you gotta find some healing, and then you do some work, and then you gotta find some healing. But at a certain point, you can only heal so far until there needs to be action to accompany along with it. But I also let me say this am so intuitive that I also don't want to coach to and don't agree That someone should do things that they fucking hate doing. Like if that's even your sign to like choose an entire career, different career path. But me personally, I'm not going to do things that I hate doing. I'm not, but I'm going to continue to figure out what my new goal or end point needs to be so that I love the action that I am taking. I also think I naturally love the journey more than some people. So I kind of disagree because I'm like, I'm not going to keep endlessly coaching to someone just post on social media. If that feels inauthentic and disgusting to you, you could look back at, you know, five years later and realize maybe you were one of those people sharing something that was, you know, not really relevant, like not true to you. So again, I will use that analogy of like the cars on the highway of like healing action, healing action. And I also just personally won't coach someone to do something that they absolutely hate doing. They need to dig more into why they hate it. Super fascinating. And I love that you said that you are able to look at the goal and That goal intuitively feels really good for you. So then therefore you'll fall in love with the journey that's going to bring you there. Right? Like, I think that that's like a really great way to explain your perspective and your own personal experience around this topic. Like, but for me, like, otherwise, you know, like. A simple example for me right now, because I'm like really into my fitness and my, my health right now. Like a simple example, example for me is like, you know, I really fucking hate lifting. Like I, do you even hate it? Like four or five sets in? Cause I hate it until I get, like, I hit that threshold where one, the Red Bull kicks in and then I really, really, really love it. I hate it the entire way through. I hate I hate having to get up to do it. I hate it the entire way through. I hate it at the end. I'm like, I'm so annoyed that I had to do this today, all the above. I could run my little fucking ass off. I could run forever and every day and I have been running every day. And it is just it makes me so happy. But and like, I'm so excited to get up in the morning to run. Right? But like, the next, but like, I know for my goals that I want, I have to do something that I fucking hate. Yeah. It just is what it is, you know, like, and so like, that's where it's just like the, the balance of this, of this topic and your perspective and that, right. It's just a little bit of a perplexing thing for me, I guess you could say it's like, it's like, okay, so then like, at what point do you choose a different goal just cause you hate one part of the journey, right? Totally. And I think that's where you just need to think more big picture. Is this worth it? And, you know. Yeah. And then even that's into, and maybe, and then maybe that's even, that's where the intuition comes in, is when you think bigger picture and you think, and you like go above all of that and you say like, okay, this part of this sucks. And it's like, and it's what I need to be able to get to what I want. Right. But then intuitively overall, right. Does doing the things to meet that goal feel good? Although the actual things suck. Right. Absolutely agree. And I'm even just thinking, okay, so one, I would say just cause I am somebody who loves doing things that feel good, which I know discomfort is where growth comes from. Like, I do know that, but I also kind of love being uncomfortable. But like, for example, I'm, so if I were you and I absolutely hated weightlifting to the point where I couldn't even get, like, I would almost try to trick myself into liking it. That's the way my weird brain works. Or I would find something that gets the job done that I do like more, you know? Class or something. That's my take. But like for example, I'm just trying to think of what I've done so far today that I don't love doing I don't love feeding my dogs I don't love making Bennett breakfast this morning, but like you have to do those things. So I don't know, I would just, I'm just somebody who really tries to find what feels good. But yeah, sometimes that maybe could be not helpful too. I think you touched on gratitude a little bit. at some point in this conversation. And I think, you know, gratitude for the fact that you are able to get up and feed the dog, that you have a dog to feed, you know, that you are able to afford the food to be able to feed the dog. Right. So like, I'm grateful that I'm able bodied enough to be able to get out of bed and be able to lift a weight, you know, absolutely. And what's been really helpful for me personally, just with all of this, and maybe this is better for our next podcast episode. But for me, it's just been like, although and this goes back to, you know, who am I. As like the soul and as like the decider of what happens next in my body and like what choices I make, right? Like, although like I may feel like not doing something like it's still, I still have the choice, you know, like I can still do something in spite of it being hard or me not feeling like doing it. I have one more. And I want to make sure that you talk about all the things you want to talk about too, but I have one more thing that irks me particularly right now, every time it comes up, it just kind of pisses me off a little bit. And I really do need to disclaim here before I say this, because I have students and close students that I do personal coaching with that I absolutely fucking love who are getting into this. And I completely respect their decision. And I will root you on every step of the way that is the type of coach I am. I will give you my advice. But if you decide that you want to do something different, then I will help you in any way I can to do whatever it is that is different from what I suggested you do, you know? Like, so, for example, if you were to ask me whether you should incorporate Reiki healing into your behind the chair services, I would say fuck no. That's gonna be a good clip. But, But, if you choose to do it, I will do everything in my power to help you make that successful. You know what I mean? Okay. Elaborate on the fuck no, please. So, here's my fucking tea with this, alright? And maybe this goes back to It can be an easy distraction from just the uncomfortable shit that you probably need to do to make it so you are solving a problem or achieving a goal, right? I find a lot of people get into adding woo stuff into their business because of wanting to make money in a different way. to take less labor on their body, right? And also just to bring their hobbies and passions into what they're doing behind the chair, which that by itself is okay, right? But for me, I think it's very healthy to separate you and your personal life from your business. And that's just like been a really important thing for me, like to actually develop my personal life and be happy outside of my business. And then look at my business as something that allows me to fully fuel my personal development and my happiness, you know. And so although my I have a strong why behind what I'm doing, and I absolutely am so grateful, and I make a huge impact doing it. And like, I want to keep fucking doing it. And it does bring me fulfillment does not mean that what it in order for me to be able to continue to do that, to do that, and or in order for it to then fuel my personal goals does not mean that I should, it's not it's not always the best thing for me to do. bring in my personal life into business, you know, or like my passions and everything like that. Like it's just not their strategic decision. Like I fucking love skiing. If I made a podcast episode about skiing for hairstylists, do you think anybody would fucking care? No, so that would not make me money. Well, maybe some people, but so like, like, so when it comes to like, you want to bring your passions in, that's great. It's just, you're creating an uphill battle for yourself because it is 10 times harder to market. Anything that. Anything that the general public is not already problem aware of or solution aware of is going to be so much harder for you to make money off of, particularly if you're building a business from the ground up, because people look at a hair salon and they think, Hair fucking services like the traditional stuff, right? and so when we choose like niches and specialties and different services that are really like a very extensive concept to explain and People it's not low hanging fruit basically, you're creating like a really really difficult climb for yourself and I think like if you're in a position where You aren't, you don't already have a strong foundation, and that's really what you want, like, and that's what the goal actually is. And you're looking at the incorporating Woo or whatever it may be as the solution, right? Then I think that that's something that I would strongly not recommend. And just keep that separate in your own personal life. Let that be something that you enjoy. That's like sacred to you and that you fucking love. And then like, I don't know, it's just like, I, every single time I have somebody who asks me and says, I want to dive deep into this niche, into this specialty of sorts. And it's not just Woo. I mean, there's so many different specialties. Something that's not hair related at all, you would say? Or yeah, or even like sometimes like, Scalp stuff even sometimes. Okay. It just kind of depends. If it's just not the low hanging fruit, it's just going to be 10 times harder for you to build a business off of it, you know, so, and especially if you, if you're not good at marketing, if you, if you don't have a natural knack for marketing and you don't know how to explain that, and if you don't know how to bridge that problem to your solutions and make people even aware that this even exists, and then I will further go on to say, unfortunately, also like I will say in, A lot of business circumstances. I will say your location should not hold you back and does not matter that much in this circumstance, particularly if we're talking about woo, your location will fucking matter as like, it will hinder you from being successful and in building a business off of solely that concept. So tell me your thoughts, because I think that you have opposite thoughts and I'm really looking forward to hearing them, you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm open minded to this situation, but I do feel it's like. I'm just, I just don't want people to put their eggs in that basket until they have a strong foundation of like, just steady, easy business, you know? Yeah, and you definitely don't want to, you know, coach to that and then realize five years, two years later, it's not going to take long. They now hate that thing that used to be their passion. It's not working for their business. It's, you know, hindered their reputation, even that they already built just when it came to their hair services. So that's fair. I respect everything you say. Can I give you my take on that? Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Okay. So what I think of when I think of that is if it's not. Woo, it may eventually be something else. I think the people who are drawn to that are the people that are on the cusp of wanting to do something other than being fully behind the chair. And I want you to think in the way as if, what if when you were growing your behind the chair business and your idea to start coaching and educating came up, somebody said, Absolutely do not do that, that will hinder your growth, which you, again, your analytical brain was very aware that you were building something entirely new, and you were letting something slowly start to diminish, but the intuitive part of me is like, if someone is having that tug on them, just cause I know My tug made no sense at the time, Hunter, when I brought it, like, I was just like, okay, I'm doing hair. I'm making good money. My business is busy, but now I'm like bored doing highlights. And I just want to keep talking with hairstylists every day. Like that was my truth. And had I not, and really, if anybody looked at the business I was going to bring to life, I mean, they probably would have said that doesn't really add up and make any sense to how to do that. So I just have the empathy on the side of, I think. Think there's something deeper when those things start to come up and maybe that's when they really need to stop and ask themselves, is the work it takes to be a successful hairstylist and run an independent business? What you thought it was going to be. Is that exciting for you or are you looking for something entirely new? And for me the creative process is almost like part of spirituality for me. And the way my life runs is like once things are going for a certain time, my intuition starts to feel, I always call it like, itchy. There's something that's coming and I can relate to the stylist that's thinking Oh, let me add this thing in. Cause they're just a little itchy and uncomfortable and a little bit bored. And I know what you're saying is like push through the boredom. But what I'm saying is that would maybe slowly kill me inside. Yeah. I completely respect everything you say. Like, and so I actually, I actually At Modern Stylist Retreat, the last day we just did like live Q and A. Like I just sat there and everybody, we just all had great conversations and people just asked me questions. And some, and multiple times, nonstop, people were asking me like, I want to add this to my business. I want to add this to my business. I want to add this to my business. I want to add this to my business. And I had just gotten back from, and I know I've been raving. I talk about this in every podcast episode that I have. So sorry, guys. I talk, I talked about this. Anytime I talk about business now, cause it was just so fucking insane. But I went to shortly before that I went to business conference in Vegas, where I was sitting next to these like tens of millions of dollars business owners, and I was learning from these people who had like 250 million a year business businesses. It was just the most insane experience of my, business life, probably. And I was just such a small fish in the room. And I learned a lot from it. And it was so interesting, because he was taking q& a from the audience. And these are 10s of millions of dollars business owners, like people who have really strong foundations for their business, right? Like they've already fucking built this shit up, you know, it was so interesting how he would respond to each of them whenever they asked the mentor if they should add this or if they should focus on this instead or if they should specialize in this or whatever may be what he would say every single time is like you already have something that's fucking working like you already have something that's low hanging fruit that people want to buy it's like why are you trying to distract yourself like You'd like, you just need to be keep on, keep on doing the things that are working over and over and over again. And so that way you can make this beautiful and work like you only have a certain amount of energy and a certain amount of time gifted to you every single day. And what will happen is like, if you get distracted by this one thing, you're already, you're already going to pull yourself away from the thing that's already working and that could potentially like. something massive and huge for you. Right. And so the way that I brought it back to the retreat and the reason why I'm bringing it up was because one of the, my students, so I was saying the same thing to my students and one of my students there was like, well, isn't that like what entrepreneurship is all about? Like, isn't it about like having a dream and always looking for new ways to grow and like, always like looking for how we can like, you know, grow our passion within what we're doing and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Honestly, like that is what every motivational speaker will tell you. Like every time you like watch a motivational speaker, they're going to tell you, like, follow your dream, like go fucking kick some ass, like do whatever. Like, even if everybody says you're crazy, like go do it anyway. But after going to that business conference, I'm like, A motivational speaker will tell you all that to like follow your dreams, but then like somebody who's like a real deal fucking big ass business owner will tell you to just stay focused and do the same boring things over and over and over again, right? Until it works. So it's like I'm not bagging on anybody for following their dreams, you know, like I've been following my fucking dreams since I was 16. And I just, yeah, 15. And I decided to fucking get into my cosmetology program. And like, I decided to become an educator when I was like, 19. And I decided to fucking open up this business, like, those have been my dreams up until this point, right? So I'm not saying like, at all that you shouldn't follow them, or if like, something is super passionate, if you're passionate about it, and you truly have like an Intuitive momentous feeling that this is where you're supposed to be. Absolutely. Follow it. But, if you're going to ask me for strategic advice, like safe, strategic advice, in which I will tell you logically, on paper, That you can fall asleep at night because you know you're giving them advice that will give results. Exactly. Like, so if you want results, like if you want numbers, right, like if you want actual things to happen for you, then that is what I'm here for to tell you. But like I said earlier, if you say to me. My dream is to create this fucking crazy thing and I'm like, Oh my God, that is a terrible idea. And you ignore me. But then you still want to hear me out. And you still want to allow me to be a part of that journey and making that dream happen. I am so down to help you make that happen. Like, I am so down to help you figure out Okay, if this is really where we want to go, how can we marry the tangible and the numbers and the data and all that stuff and the boring, repetitive stuff? How can we marry those proven business concepts to your dream to make your dream work, you know? Hell yeah. So, I really appreciate your perspective. Same. And, and, yeah, same. I was going to add another point, but I feel like we're, we're getting pretty long on time, so maybe I won't do that. Same, I agree. I hope everybody understands where I'm coming from with the woo. And I hope that you guys are like, how do you feel after that? I think people understand where I come from. I think if people have listened to me long enough, if they, if they know me, and especially if you're a student of mine, then you know where I'm coming from. And you know, you know, that truly at the end of the day, I truly just care about people. And I want people, people to have the best. And I want people's businesses to be something that as I truly fueling their personal life and giving them like the wellness and the happiness that they That is possible for them, you know And so for me if you want like no bullshit like business advice Right and also of course like a kick in the ass and a pep talk and motivation every now and then And of course like philosophy like I absolutely include that in my own business and also in my coaching as well Then i'm your guy but I'm not going to tell you to charge some crystals and do a vision board. And you know, like that's just not my tea. But no disrespect to anybody who does that. Because if that's going to work for you, if that's going to make you successful, then fucking by all means, go ahead and do it. And I think that it's so beautiful that I have you, somebody who can remind me it. That there are people out there who are incorporating those types of core values and practices into business coaching in a really ethical and beautiful way, and people are actually getting results doing it, you know, like, I'm very appreciative that I get to see that as something that's actually happening every day, particularly from like some somebody who I respect, such as you. And different strokes for different folks, and it's just kind of finding what works for you, and that literally goes with everything in life. And so, and I even said this to Hunter when he first brought it up, I also think that people who are really in a hard place and really struggling can be drawn to woo so easily because they're just grasping for anything. And so it, again, going back to like, I can only lay my head down at night knowing that I'm not just blindly Telling people to go this direction when the stats do big crazy out there ideas exist without somebody having a really crazy out there idea to start it with. Right. They, they wouldn't exist if it weren't for that. Statistically, how many of those become something? The statistics are alarmingly low. So you just have to be aware of that and, and be mindful of that as you're cheering people on and guiding them through their lives and business. And I love that we can relate in that too, because it's a lot of pressure. It really is a lot of pressure. And it's really, I think people are going to enjoy this kind of like flip flop back and forth duality of this. And I am sure everyone can find a middle ground in that. 100%. And again, I think I've already made it clear, but I just need to say one more time. Like girl, I support you whenever the fuck you want to believe how, whatever's going to make you happy and whatever dream you have. Like, I'm just here to root you on along the way, you know, like, so pop the fuck off. Like I have full respect for you, full respect for whatever practices that you have in place. As long as you are not hurting other people, then I am cool. You know, like as long as you aren't harming other people, like I do not give a fuck about what you do and I will root you on for it as long as it's positive. So. Lisa, I appreciate you so much. I appreciate you, friend. Peace out. I know, I'm like, do I wrap this up? Do you wrap this up? I know, this is strange. Bye audiences everywhere. Bye y'all.